Gender roles & biological "programming"

topic posted Thu, November 16, 2006 - 9:30 PM by  Le Jacquelope
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It turns out that in my informal look into past history, matriarchal societies also assigned men rigid roles, most notably roles that separated men deemed genetically fit, from those deemed genetically unfit, and afforded more rights to the former. Kind of like modern patriarchal societies did to women in the past (and in the middle East today), and still do to Western women whenever and wherever the strict, equalist hand of the law is not looking.

Is it not safe to say that the concept of "biological programming" is hardly anything more than an arbitrary construct by which the *atriarchal society restricts freedom for the gender that has the least amount of collective power?
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  • Re: Gender roles & biological "programming"

    Fri, November 17, 2006 - 1:06 AM
    To say that, you must first prove that it is not natural and perfectly within our design that we construct such barriers and hierarchies for ourselves. I do not believe that we are acting out of sync with nature. You see natural selection all around us, right down to the basics of chemistry. Things cancel eachother out, from a planetary level right down to a cellular level, leaving that which survives the math. I do, however, believe that we are in a position to transcend such physical limitations through the human process of self-cognition. Whose place is it to say where such a path will lead? At some point, all of us must admit that there are things in this universe that are way beyond our comprehension. It is in these places that the physical and the spiritual meet, (and often, to our limited scope of understanding, seem to clash).

    So on a small scale, yes, I suppose it seems very arbitrary. But I do not believe that we are in a position to either condemn or glorify the roles we set for ourselves. This would suggest that we had the power to create them of our own volition. We only have the power to sift through the ashes, and build a better house next time. Heaven only knows who or what may burn it down.
    • Re: Gender roles & biological "programming"

      Sun, November 19, 2006 - 9:47 AM
      Well hell, if I lived in a cave I would probably want a big guy who could fight off bears...

      I don't really want to fight them myself...

      I could see that being a positive attribute for a cave-partner.
      • Re: Gender roles & biological "programming"

        Fri, November 24, 2006 - 9:26 PM
        So why can't the guy adopt this attitude?

        "Well hell, if I lived in a cave I would probably want a woman who could fight off bears..."

        What if he's ganged up on by 2 or 3 bears and is killed? How will you defend yourself when the bears make their way into the cave then?

        That's the whole benefit of gender equality: the man and the woman fight as a team. That means death for a heck of a lot more intruding bears than just one person.

        I'd like a logical explanation for why I'm wrong when I say that.
    • Re: Gender roles & biological "programming"

      Fri, November 24, 2006 - 9:30 PM
      I would say biological programming is arbitrary in that it's highly illogical.

      In a traditional sense, the man protects the woman, and not vice versa.

      Logical error: what if he becomes sick, or gravely injured? How will she defend herself then?

      Solution: if she has combat skills, she can pick up the slack, or team up to prevent either one from being injured to begin with. That requires more or less an egalitarian approach.

      I haven't even brought up the possibility of her "protector" turning against her... seeing as that never happens in nature and all *sarcasm off*
    • Re: Gender roles & biological "programming"

      Sat, November 25, 2006 - 12:45 PM
      The L: "Is it not safe to say that the concept of "biological programming" is hardly anything more than an arbitrary construct by which the *atriarchal society restricts freedom for the gender that has the least amount of collective power?"

      No. I don't think it is safe to say that at all.

      Generally, in talk about gender and sex, I see the following options for looking at the issues:

      1) Gender is a "social construct" and biology has zero to do with gender. (Used primarily by gender feminists.)
      2) Gender is "biologically determined" and socialization has little or nothing to do with it. (Used by those with a poor understanding of biological science and evolutionary theory.)
      3) Organism and environment can never be seperated. Every issue of humanity, including gender, seems an example of the organism-as-a-whole in an environment-as-a-whole. In other words, gender is determined by a combination of socialization (environment) and biology (organism).

      Personally, I'm going with number three.

      Joe: "I do, however, believe that we are in a position to transcend such physical limitations through the human process of self-cognition. Whose place is it to say where such a path will lead?"

      I agree. We have a possibility to transcend our biology...to a degree. Some things we cannot transcend, and unless some downward evolutionary pressure occurs, probably never will. These mostly lie in the purely biological realm, of course, where self-determination does not make much difference. Things like...

      Men have larger, but less dense brains than women.
      Men have larger lung capacities than women.
      Men have lower body fat content than women.
      etc...

      Of course, these types of factors are part of the "organism-as-a-whole" mentioned above, and contribute to the social differences....

      Anyhow...that's my two cents. The organism and the environment cannot be seperated. I think the philosophy of biological determinism and "gender is a social construct" both seem deeply and equally flawed, and restrictive to humans everywhere. Unfortunately, they both seem to be pretty popular ideas.

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